Is Dave Ramsey Ethical?
Some of you know that one of my other hobbies is personal finance. Recently a group of my personal finance blogging friends and I did a series on American personal finance guru Dave Ramsey.
Being British, Dave Ramsey isn’t exactly well known to me. I’ve only ever encountered him on the interweb, where some of my good friends are followers of Dave Ramsey’s baby steps for getting out of debt. This method is a good (if not mathematically optimal) method for getting out of debt, and I have no problems with it.
In addition to his website, and books, Ramsey also promotes his own courses - The Financial Peace University, and you can train to be a Dave Ramsey financial counselor and help other people get out of debt.
Well, you can train to be a Dave Ramsey counsellor only if you’re an Evangelical Christian.
I’m not up on American law, but I’m pretty certain it’s perfectly legal for Ramsey to discriminate on the grounds of religion.
I don’t think it’s right though. And I’m not the only one - Ana who blogs at Debt-FREE revolution is a big Dave Ramsey fan, and she’s not a Christian at all. She wrote recently giving her opinions on the restrictions Ramsey imposes.
There is an argument that Ramsey bases his financial teachings on the Bible. However, other people have reviewed Dave Ramsey’s program and concluded that - somewhat unsurprisingly - you don’t have to be a Christian to follow it.
Ok, so you mostly aren’t that interested in personal finance, but it does illustrate a point - to what extent should religious discrimination be allowed by businesses?
Is it discriminatory to say that religiously motivated organisations can’t discriminate on religious grounds? (I’ll leave that train of thought there before I get tied up in a tongue twister.)
Where religious discrimination is in place, and you think they should be allowed to do as they please (but don’t actually approve) do you avoid promoting them?
On balance, my position is that religious discrimination in unrelated businesses (like personal finance) is usually wrong, and I shouldn’t support it, but I’m ambivalent as to whether it should be made illegal. If public money is involved then I’m more inclined to think it should be illegal.
I know all the commentators on the religious atheist have great things to say, so let me know what you think in the comments.
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17 Responses to “Is Dave Ramsey Ethical?”
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There is a reason why I don’t say too many good things about Dave Ramsey. One is the religious aspect, the other is the math aspect.
The problem with using the argument of the teachings relating to the Bible is that the Bible contains a lot of common sense. I don’t believe the Bible invented the concept of gathering wealth little by little, but it is often attributed to it.
Anyone looking to be a Dave Ramsey financial counselor who doesn’t like the religious aspect would be better off on their on (IMO).
WHAT THE HELL IS INTERWEB?
@Lazy:
I pretty much agree about Dave Ramsey, it’s bad that people who are really passionate about his plan can’t help other people in debt with the same methods, just because they aren’t Christians. And I’m sure there is a market for an independent financial counsellor in the same mould.
@Will:
Questions like that are what wikipedia was invented for.
really stupid to discriminate on the basis of religion. of course, i’m sure he has his reasons, but america’s only religion should be capitalism!!!
If I had wanted to give 10% of my income to the church and the rest to the government, heck, I would’ve stayed in England!!! Don’t get your undies in a twist, I’m just being facetious.
Haha… nice response to Will!
Wait…. am I a newbie because I didn’t type LOL?
Many authors, speakers, radio personalities, and television hosts mention their own beliefs - and associate their work w/ like-minded individuals. Dave wants his lessons to be taught by people who come from the same religious mind set that he has. While this may or may not make the best ‘business sense’ - this is a choice that Dave has made.
I’ve listened to several secular speakers and authors - who tout the ideas like evolution - and I’m able to ‘pull’ from their speeches the information that is applicable to my own situation - and ignore what isn’t. Dave’s basic system will work for any person - religious or not. But, for those Christians who believe that there is a specific, spiritual component of personal finance, Dave offers help in that area, as well.
“No. Anyone of any faith or belief system can attend. However, we only “Certify” and recommend on our website practicing Evangelical Christians. The reason for this is simple; our training and our belief system flows from our Evangelical Christian faith. Our teaching comes from our faith in Jesus, and we use the Christian Bible in the teaching process. We love people of different faiths and doctrines, and treat them as our welcome guests.”
that is the answer on Ramsey’s site about why he doesn’t certify Non-Christians. There is a lot of Biblical teaching in his deeper cirriculum, so it’s not that he’s discriminating for the sake of being exclusive to Christians. He just believes that it would be hypocritical for someone to teach what he teaches if they didn’t believe it themselves.
It’s understandable to feel the way that most of you feel, but I think you’re missing the point about why he’s doing it.
I don’t think I’m missing the point. I get that Ramsey thinks that the bible is essential to his work. Obviously he thinks it’s ok to discriminate or he wouldn’t do it. But I still don’t think that’s a good thing. Based on practical experience, people don’t need to be Christians to follow the Dave Ramsey plan, it works anyway.
If I think it’s a bad thing that Ramsey is discriminating, what should I do about it? What place should religious discrimination have in modern society?
Well, I have been sitting back and waiting to see what your readers say. This is still something I am grappling with, since I do like the idea of helping others get out of debt but am not about to lie about my religion or convert.
For the record, I obviously don’t believe that one needs to be Christian or believe in the Bible for the Dave Ramsey plan to work: I am proof of it.
Discrimination isn’t bad, full stop. We all discriminate all the time; we have to. The only important determinant to me is if the discrimination is doing unjustifiable harm. For example, if you have the only gas station for fifty miles and you refuse to serve black customers, you are doing unjustifiable harm. A similar argument can be made for any “public accomodations” or other businesses which provide services to the public and discrimination on any grounds other than behavior.
So what we have to ask here, in my opinion, is whether Dave Ramsey’s discrimination is actually harming anybody and whether it is justifiable. I think Plonkee is probably right on the latter point - it doesn’t seem like it is justifiable, but I am not terribly familiar with Mr. Ramsey’s program. It’s quite possible that a non-Christian could agree with all the Biblical teachings which are a part of his curriculum. I doubt that accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior is a big part of his financial program.
However, Ramsey’s practice flunks my first test. Nobody is being harmed by his actions and he has a perfect right to endorse or not endorse people on his website for any reason he chooses (or for no reasons at all).
@ Andrew:
I agree that he has the right to endorse or not endorse whoever. I think my reaction is that he is making a mistake, and I don’t need to actively support that mistake. Just because someone can do something, doesn’t mean that they should.
Forgive me, Plonkee, I was unclear. I don’t just mean he has a legal right, but that there doesn’t seem to me to be any moral content here either, so he has a moral right as well. Whether he’s making an intelligent or wise decision, I don’t know. Perhaps it’s the case that he takes seriously a Christian’s duty to tithe. He may not be comfortable with the idea that one of his counselors would counsel a Christian and not make allowance for tithing. (I wouldn’t counsel tithing unless the person I was counseling made clear that tithing was something they themselves took very seriously. Otherwise, I think people have an obligation to ensure first and foremost that they won’t be in need of charity themselves for the foreseeable future, and then I recommend charitable giving.)
If you have a problem with Dave on math or religion, you just don’t get it. 1. Dave stresses that personal finance is 80% on focuses on changing behaviors, which is why he recommends paying off the smallest debt first no matter the interest rate. It’s for the psychological boost. Second, it’s called The Dave Ramsey Show for a reason. Non-Christians or non-religious folks are some of the most closed minded even while the process the polar opposite. I know because that was me.
It’s Dave’s company and in TN he can hire who he wants and fire you because he doesn’t like your new hair-do if he so chooses.
The Borrower is Slave to the Lender is the keystone upon which the Dave Empire is built, can’t blame him for sticking to his principles.
While it is Dave’s show, you can play Dave yourself here … great fun on credit card collectors …
http://www.daveramseyguru.com/dave-soundboard-v01/
@Fielding:
I know that Dave can hire and fire whoever he likes. I simply question whether he should - whether refusing to accredit non-Christians is a right, moral and ethical thing to do.
Since I’m aware of a number of people who like and use Dave’s program successfully without being Christians, I’d contend that being a Christian is not essential to deliver the program. Naturally Dave (and many of his Christian supporters) will probably disagree with me.
As I said, I don’t have a problem with Dave Ramsey’s method, it’s not for me, but then I don’t have issues with debt. I am aware that it’s not mathematically optimal, as are the people involved in the Dave Ramsey organisation. No one thinks that it’s a fatal flaw.
I also don’t have a problem with Dave being a member of whatever religion he feels that he must. I have an interest in exploring where this has an effect on other people, and I am (strictly in general) opposed to one person’s private beliefs impacting adversely on other people.
@plonkee
I have a question for you, what do you deem to be an adversity?
Plonkee said, “I am (strictly in general) opposed to one person’s private beliefs impacting adversely on other people.”