Is Dave Ramsey Ethical?
Some of you know that one of my other hobbies is personal finance. Recently a group of my personal finance blogging friends and I did a series on American personal finance guru Dave Ramsey.
Being British, Dave Ramsey isn’t exactly well known to me. I’ve only ever encountered him on the interweb, where some of my good friends are followers of Dave Ramsey’s baby steps for getting out of debt. This method is a good (if not mathematically optimal) method for getting out of debt, and I have no problems with it.
In addition to his website, and books, Ramsey also promotes his own courses - The Financial Peace University, and you can train to be a Dave Ramsey financial counselor and help other people get out of debt.
Well, you can train to be a Dave Ramsey counsellor only if you’re an Evangelical Christian.
I’m not up on American law, but I’m pretty certain it’s perfectly legal for Ramsey to discriminate on the grounds of religion.
I don’t think it’s right though. And I’m not the only one - Ana who blogs at Debt-FREE revolution is a big Dave Ramsey fan, and she’s not a Christian at all. She wrote recently giving her opinions on the restrictions Ramsey imposes.
There is an argument that Ramsey bases his financial teachings on the Bible. However, other people have reviewed Dave Ramsey’s program and concluded that - somewhat unsurprisingly - you don’t have to be a Christian to follow it.
Ok, so you mostly aren’t that interested in personal finance, but it does illustrate a point - to what extent should religious discrimination be allowed by businesses?
Is it discriminatory to say that religiously motivated organisations can’t discriminate on religious grounds? (I’ll leave that train of thought there before I get tied up in a tongue twister.)
Where religious discrimination is in place, and you think they should be allowed to do as they please (but don’t actually approve) do you avoid promoting them?
On balance, my position is that religious discrimination in unrelated businesses (like personal finance) is usually wrong, and I shouldn’t support it, but I’m ambivalent as to whether it should be made illegal. If public money is involved then I’m more inclined to think it should be illegal.
I know all the commentators on the religious atheist have great things to say, so let me know what you think in the comments.
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27 Responses to “Is Dave Ramsey Ethical?”
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There is a reason why I don’t say too many good things about Dave Ramsey. One is the religious aspect, the other is the math aspect.
The problem with using the argument of the teachings relating to the Bible is that the Bible contains a lot of common sense. I don’t believe the Bible invented the concept of gathering wealth little by little, but it is often attributed to it.
Anyone looking to be a Dave Ramsey financial counselor who doesn’t like the religious aspect would be better off on their on (IMO).
WHAT THE HELL IS INTERWEB?
@Lazy:
I pretty much agree about Dave Ramsey, it’s bad that people who are really passionate about his plan can’t help other people in debt with the same methods, just because they aren’t Christians. And I’m sure there is a market for an independent financial counsellor in the same mould.
@Will:
Questions like that are what wikipedia was invented for.
really stupid to discriminate on the basis of religion. of course, i’m sure he has his reasons, but america’s only religion should be capitalism!!!
If I had wanted to give 10% of my income to the church and the rest to the government, heck, I would’ve stayed in England!!! Don’t get your undies in a twist, I’m just being facetious.
Haha… nice response to Will!
Wait…. am I a newbie because I didn’t type LOL?
Many authors, speakers, radio personalities, and television hosts mention their own beliefs - and associate their work w/ like-minded individuals. Dave wants his lessons to be taught by people who come from the same religious mind set that he has. While this may or may not make the best ‘business sense’ - this is a choice that Dave has made.
I’ve listened to several secular speakers and authors - who tout the ideas like evolution - and I’m able to ‘pull’ from their speeches the information that is applicable to my own situation - and ignore what isn’t. Dave’s basic system will work for any person - religious or not. But, for those Christians who believe that there is a specific, spiritual component of personal finance, Dave offers help in that area, as well.
“No. Anyone of any faith or belief system can attend. However, we only “Certify” and recommend on our website practicing Evangelical Christians. The reason for this is simple; our training and our belief system flows from our Evangelical Christian faith. Our teaching comes from our faith in Jesus, and we use the Christian Bible in the teaching process. We love people of different faiths and doctrines, and treat them as our welcome guests.”
that is the answer on Ramsey’s site about why he doesn’t certify Non-Christians. There is a lot of Biblical teaching in his deeper cirriculum, so it’s not that he’s discriminating for the sake of being exclusive to Christians. He just believes that it would be hypocritical for someone to teach what he teaches if they didn’t believe it themselves.
It’s understandable to feel the way that most of you feel, but I think you’re missing the point about why he’s doing it.
I don’t think I’m missing the point. I get that Ramsey thinks that the bible is essential to his work. Obviously he thinks it’s ok to discriminate or he wouldn’t do it. But I still don’t think that’s a good thing. Based on practical experience, people don’t need to be Christians to follow the Dave Ramsey plan, it works anyway.
If I think it’s a bad thing that Ramsey is discriminating, what should I do about it? What place should religious discrimination have in modern society?
Well, I have been sitting back and waiting to see what your readers say. This is still something I am grappling with, since I do like the idea of helping others get out of debt but am not about to lie about my religion or convert.
For the record, I obviously don’t believe that one needs to be Christian or believe in the Bible for the Dave Ramsey plan to work: I am proof of it.
Discrimination isn’t bad, full stop. We all discriminate all the time; we have to. The only important determinant to me is if the discrimination is doing unjustifiable harm. For example, if you have the only gas station for fifty miles and you refuse to serve black customers, you are doing unjustifiable harm. A similar argument can be made for any “public accomodations” or other businesses which provide services to the public and discrimination on any grounds other than behavior.
So what we have to ask here, in my opinion, is whether Dave Ramsey’s discrimination is actually harming anybody and whether it is justifiable. I think Plonkee is probably right on the latter point - it doesn’t seem like it is justifiable, but I am not terribly familiar with Mr. Ramsey’s program. It’s quite possible that a non-Christian could agree with all the Biblical teachings which are a part of his curriculum. I doubt that accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior is a big part of his financial program.
However, Ramsey’s practice flunks my first test. Nobody is being harmed by his actions and he has a perfect right to endorse or not endorse people on his website for any reason he chooses (or for no reasons at all).
@ Andrew:
I agree that he has the right to endorse or not endorse whoever. I think my reaction is that he is making a mistake, and I don’t need to actively support that mistake. Just because someone can do something, doesn’t mean that they should.
Forgive me, Plonkee, I was unclear. I don’t just mean he has a legal right, but that there doesn’t seem to me to be any moral content here either, so he has a moral right as well. Whether he’s making an intelligent or wise decision, I don’t know. Perhaps it’s the case that he takes seriously a Christian’s duty to tithe. He may not be comfortable with the idea that one of his counselors would counsel a Christian and not make allowance for tithing. (I wouldn’t counsel tithing unless the person I was counseling made clear that tithing was something they themselves took very seriously. Otherwise, I think people have an obligation to ensure first and foremost that they won’t be in need of charity themselves for the foreseeable future, and then I recommend charitable giving.)
If you have a problem with Dave on math or religion, you just don’t get it. 1. Dave stresses that personal finance is 80% on focuses on changing behaviors, which is why he recommends paying off the smallest debt first no matter the interest rate. It’s for the psychological boost. Second, it’s called The Dave Ramsey Show for a reason. Non-Christians or non-religious folks are some of the most closed minded even while the process the polar opposite. I know because that was me.
It’s Dave’s company and in TN he can hire who he wants and fire you because he doesn’t like your new hair-do if he so chooses.
The Borrower is Slave to the Lender is the keystone upon which the Dave Empire is built, can’t blame him for sticking to his principles.
While it is Dave’s show, you can play Dave yourself here … great fun on credit card collectors …
http://www.daveramseyguru.com/dave-soundboard-v01/
@Fielding:
I know that Dave can hire and fire whoever he likes. I simply question whether he should - whether refusing to accredit non-Christians is a right, moral and ethical thing to do.
Since I’m aware of a number of people who like and use Dave’s program successfully without being Christians, I’d contend that being a Christian is not essential to deliver the program. Naturally Dave (and many of his Christian supporters) will probably disagree with me.
As I said, I don’t have a problem with Dave Ramsey’s method, it’s not for me, but then I don’t have issues with debt. I am aware that it’s not mathematically optimal, as are the people involved in the Dave Ramsey organisation. No one thinks that it’s a fatal flaw.
I also don’t have a problem with Dave being a member of whatever religion he feels that he must. I have an interest in exploring where this has an effect on other people, and I am (strictly in general) opposed to one person’s private beliefs impacting adversely on other people.
@plonkee
I have a question for you, what do you deem to be an adversity?
Plonkee said, “I am (strictly in general) opposed to one person’s private beliefs impacting adversely on other people.”
Dave Ramsey has a specific point of view in the course that he is teaching. He teaches specific things when it comes to finances, and he relates much of what he’s teaching to biblical principles. Since he comes from an evangelical christian point of view, and much of his program includes bible verses, faith topics, etc it only makes sense that he would want others who are teaching his program to believe in the same principles.
As soon as he starts endorsing those who don’t believe in everything he’s teaching - his program becomes something else, it becomes that person’s hybrid Dave Ramsey program. That’s not what it was meant to be. It’s Dave Ramsey’s program, and he can teach it the way he wants, and endorse whoever he wants. He has his program’s integrity to uphold, and he wants to make sure it is taught how it was meant to be taught.
I think if others want to come up with their own program that comes from an atheist viewpoint, or from no religious viewpoint at all, that would be fine with me. And I wouldn’t have any problem whatsoever with them “discriminating” as to who taught their program. If they didn’t want me as a Christian to teach it, so be it. I probably wouldn’t have my heart in it anyway.
I think the word “discrimination” has become sort of a buzzword where anytime anything is limited to a certain group, or not everyone is allowed to participate, it becomes discrimination, and the red flags start going up. I think we all discriminate in our every day lives, and it isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It becomes a bad thing when it specifically harms someone, or endangers their pursuit of life, liberty and their pursuit of happiness. I don’t believe that’s happening here.
Ramsey never says that non-christians can’t attend his classes, or that they can’t benefit from the program. In fact, everyone and anyone is encouraged to attend. We’re helping to teach one of his “financial peace university” classes right now at our church, and there are several non-christians in our group. They’re still getting a lot out of it.
I took Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University course and i have a problem with him for a different reason. He claims to be a “christian” but lives (and teaches) the opposite of what scriptures teach regarding money. If he were following the scriptures, he would not be encouraging 401k accounts, saving for college, saving for cars, paying off debt, paying off the house, etc. and then give the leftover to the church, the poor, etc. Godly, sacrificial giving is what God calls us to do. God doesn’t want the leftovers. And let me just say right here, God doesn’t NEED our money in the first place. it’s about our HEARTS and how we handle what is already given to us by Him to begin with. So for those of you out there that are offended by Dave Ramsey for being too Christian? take comfort….he’s not. He’s as worldly as they come.
I am not an evangelical Christian, but I agree with the substance of Mary’s response above. Dave Ramsey’s ‘religion’ is more about the American dream than about biblical Christianity. The give-away, in my opinion, is Ramsey’s constant belittling of persons he disagrees with. He freely spouts names like ‘moron’ and (appallingly) ‘butthole’. The audience probably loves it. And Jesus (if we want to go there in our discussion) probably weeps. I’m not a moralist when it comes to the use of ‘bad’ words, but I am horrified when a public ‘Christian’ figure speaks that way about people created in the image of God. It doesn’t compute for me, thus Dave Ramsey has no credibility in my book. For sure, his principles are not distinctly Christian.
@Mary - You attended Dave’s FPU and got THAT out of it?
Dave says that you put tithing at the top of the list and THEN he spends the rest of net on the other things that you listed (other than 401k obviously since that comes out before you are paid). In NO way does Dave say save for a car BEFORE you tithe. He specifically says that it goes first because if you put it last you would find all the other reasons as to why you couldn’t tithe.
I am attending the class version of FPU (I did it online and now have an interest in facilitating it myself) and I am not a Christian, but I definitely know that Dave SPECIFICALLY addressed the tithing off the top and then living on the remainder. That really tells me that you did not attend FPU. Come on now! Be truthful.
While it dismays me that I am now seeing that Dave does not certify non-Christians, I accept his choice. I understand that while I whole heartedly believe in his program that his Christian emphasis can become diluted if he has a non-Christian certified and teaching others. I still have an interest in attending the Certified Counselor training because how else can I get this in depth information by folks that help people everyday (no, I am not interested in attending a finance class that is taught in theory unless I am trying to learn more about a specific area). I can still help people learn the Dave Ramsey way by facilitating his FPU class.
Religious discrimination is not legal in the US:
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of l964 prohibits employers from discriminating against individuals because of their religion in hiring, firing, and other terms and conditions of employment. Title VII covers employers with 15 or more employees, including state and local governments. It also applies to employment agencies and to labor organizations, as well as to the federal government.
:
RE: Donna
It is not legal for an employer to not hire someone on the grounds of their religious beliefs (and that’s a good thing). However, people applying to be certified as a Dave Ramsey endorsed financial advisor are *NOT* employees. So your point is irrelevant to the argument.
RE: Mary Hicks,
You obviously don’t listen to Dave much, nor read your Bible much either. First - Dave repeatedly says give to God first, not because God needs it but because he believes in the scripture.
Second, try a study on money in the bible, starting with Prov. 21:20 (in the house of the wise are stores of choice food), Ecclesiastes 11:2
(Divide your portion to seven, or even to eight, for you do not know what misfortune may occur on the earth), Proverbs 13:16
A wise man thinks ahead; a fool doesn’t, and even brags about it! ,
The list goes on. In fact - try reading a book called “Thou Shalt Prosper” by Daniel Lapen. It is an excellent book (though I may have spelled his name wrong).
FYI - I am an avid listener of Dave, and a Christian myself.
Of all the types of discrimination, religious discrimination is the one that I truly understand the most. If I am a member of a Baptist church, or any other type of church, I don’t want someone with different ideologies and beliefs, and principals, coming in and spouting their beliefs and indoctrination. I do think it is important to be open minded to other beliefs and doctrines, but to expect a Mormon church to allow a Presbyterian to become an elder is ridiculous. If Dave Ramsey has set boundaries on who or what he wants to teach his financial seminars and philosophies, that should be his perogative without being made out to be discriminatory.
In this country we have hidden ourselves behind all sorts of discrimination claims. If we don’t like something, discrimination. If we don’t get our way, discrimination. If someone is mean to us, their discriminatory.
Grow up people.
Dave Ramsey is anything but ethical. He openly admits to beating his children and gets the entire crowd to laugh at the idea of beating children to keep them from being criminals in the course about teaching your children about money. The truth is the opposite with regards to violence against children. Beaten children are more likely to commit crimes and violence against others.
RE: Jeff
You obviously haven’t read your bible much either…
19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Dave’s course seems to make sense to me, but to claim that it is based on Christianity is basically (whether he intended it to be or not) a great marketing strategy that creates an instant bond between him and the majority of the US. To think that Jesus wanted everybody to wealthy is ridiculous. Of course if you are basing your finances on what the Bible or Jesus says, your finances may not be your only issue…
I think that Dave Ramsey is a funny guy. He is smart. He has a program that works. I am so glad that this is America and he has the freedom in his business to make decisions about who he wants to represent his business. This is just another example of people getting their panties in bunch over something that they probably don’t care about anyway. To Religious Atheist….are you interested in being a Dave Ramsey Financial counselor? If you are not, then you are just stirring sh*t.