atheism is not nihilistic but…
Atheism is not intrinsically nihilistic, but some atheists/agnostics can be.
One of the criticisms often levelled at atheists is that without a god hanging round, there’s no purpose to life. There are various responses to this, one is that we don’t need purpose in a pre-defined sense, another is that it leaves us free to find our own purpose. A third excellent reply, is that it doesn’t much matter whether or not it would be nicer for god to exist and for life to have intrinsic meaning, because that doesn’t alter reality. Which is that there’s no satisfactory evidence for god or gods.
Most atheists are happy to either self-define the meaning of their life, or live without it. But not all.
A friend of mine was telling me about her depression, and how difficult she finds her understanding of reality to be at her lowest moments. For her, as for me, there is no happy ending, no supernatural watching over us, just regular day to day life. She actually does find it depressing that there is no meaning to life.
Now, I guess that this is primarily a function of her depression, and that whatever world view she held wouldn’t provide enough comfort to lift her mood. Because I think that’s kind of how depression works.
There’s nothing I can really say to her. We all love her and she means a great deal to us. Despite her opinions to the contrary she is a vital, important, much needed and wanted person. And sometimes I tell her so (don’t know whether that’s a good idea or not).
The thing about being atheist is that it only means lacking belief in god(s). Nothing else. It’s not a religion, a set of beliefs, and doesn’t have any ethical position. I get the impression that most atheists are, like me, fundamentally happy with their non-belief. But we aren’t all the same - some of us find being an atheist challenging.
Sometimes it’s a pity that you can’t really do anything about belief, or lack of it.
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9 Responses to “atheism is not nihilistic but…”
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Atheism isn’t inherently…
…crazy, but atheists can be
…good, but atheists can be
…evil, but atheists can be
….religious, but atheists can be
…funny, but atheists can be
etc
@Samuel:
but sometimes in my eagerness to persuade people that atheism is a positive experience for me, I forget that it doesn’t have to be, and isn’t for some people. Like my friend.
I know
I think you’re right about this. I have friends with the same problem. I have tried discussing god/no god with them and they feel the lack of god makes things pointless. They also feel that life being finite makes things pointless. I disagree strongly on these points. The only way I can see to discover whether this belief affects their depression is to ask them to consider the opposite scenario, where a god exists and/or life is infinite. They tell me that would be pointless too.
Feelings of pointlessness come with depression, not necessarily any world-view.
I would say there’s no harm telling her that unless it makes her feel pressured to live up to your expectations.
In my experience (two-three cases only, so take with a pinch of salt), philosophy is not good for those with depression. Dwelling on existential questions, their own feelings or the meaning of life is a bad idea. These things are guided by emotions and if all emotions are pointing the wrong way, it can lead into a downward spiral…
The most effective antidote to mild or early depression is a healthy dose of real life. Whatever the depressed person finds most fascinating and captivating. Friends of mine are best distracted by live music, sport or the natural world and the great outdoors. Something which fills their mind so there’s no room for worry. Giving sympathy is fine, but don’t let it turn into a wallowing session of them telling you all about how terrible everything seems. That does no one any good!
Sorry, went a bit off-topic there, but thought it might help…
I see what you’re saying, Eshu, and you’re probably right in the majority of cases, but philosophy saved my life. Throughout my adolescence and early adulthood, I was a nihilistic atheist and this caused me a whole host of problems (I was actually reasonably consistent in my nihilism, or at least tried to be). My discovery of moral philosophy (of the atheistic variety) rescued me from my own worst excesses and my struggles with depression. There are, of course, people who are just melancholy by nature and would be depressed no matter what and perhaps Plonkee’s friend is one of them. However, a great many people who are depressed are simply doing something wrong, either in action or in thought. Change that and the depression will disappear. Anyway, in my case, it was my philosophical disposition which was causing my problems. Logically, only good philosophy was going to be able to drive out the bad philosophy and solve the problem for me.
Fortunately, my case is fairly rare. Most nihilists are cheerfully unconcerned with the implications of their position, usually because they aren’t of a particularly philosophical disposition anyway, so it causes them no problems at all. If your response to “life has no meaning and nothing matters” is simply a shrug rather than trying to think through the implications of it, then nihilism doesn’t have to be crippling at all.
There is a calumny about religion that some atheists tell. Many of them claim that the whole point of religion is to give people a belief that they will live forever and need never die. This is actually not true. While Christianity has a belief in immortal life, it’s comparatively rare among religions. Few pre-Christian or non-Western religions reference eternal life and, when they do, it’s often not a very pleasant sort. The void that religion fills for people is to explain the meaning of life, to give people an ultimate purpose. Misunderstanding this poses a problem for atheists since it leads them to misunderstand the religious mindset.
Unfortunately, I don’t have any solution for Plonkee’s friend. Even if I actually knew someone like that and even if I actually thought it would help, it would still take me months, possibly years, to convince someone of my philosophy. It certainly took that long to convince me.
Giving sympathy is fine, but don’t let it turn into a wallowing session of them telling you all about how terrible everything seems. That does no one any good!
I couldn’t agree more with this.
I agree that the void that religion mainly seeks to fill is the one about purpose and meaning. I don’t think that people with depression who feel that their life lacks purpose and meaning would be cured by religion - I think that if they didn’t have depression, they would either (a) be convinced there was a purpose or (b) be happy in accepting there was no purpose.
My friend thinks that her beliefs are unhelpful. I think her beliefs are a red herring.
@Andrew:
I really mean this in the nicest possible way, but I get the impression that you are uncommon in your needs and outlook. I reckon it’s pretty unusual to escape from depression simply by thinking more. Of course, I’m basing this on instinct and so could be completely wrong. I’d be interested to know what you think.
As I said in the above comment, I do think Eshu is right in the majority of cases. It is not my opinion that most people think very much about philosophy or are handicapped by their beliefs, be they religious, atheist, or nihilist. However, given your description, your friend may (or easily may not) be one of them. I mentioned this only because your friend seems to be so handicapped. Of course the root of her depression may very well lie elsewhere.
As I’ve often stated, I certainly don’t think the need for purpose or meaning needs to be filled by religion. I much prefer my own solution, a deontological moral philosophy which needs no higher purpose, mostly because I think it has the advantage of being true. The purpose of life is simply to live a good life well lived.
I really, really love this. Especially the second part.
Anyway, yes it might help for my friend to philosophise her way out. But I think (based primarily on what you’ve said) that would be quite difficult for her to do so. Depression is not good.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing where he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from where they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: why God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he has prepared for them a city.
I don’t always like to cut and paste in my comments, but Hebrews 11 contains some of the most beautiful words every written. No depression here!
@rocketc:
No, I don’t suppose that you are depressed. But just as atheism and humanism are warm and positive, but atheists and humanists can still be depressed, so can bona fide Christians. Depression is common enough that you probably know someone who has suffered from it.